Wizard Wednesday Episode 34 Transcription

Wizard Wednesday Episode 34 - Feat. Guest Alexis Ohanian

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Elf: [00:00:00] It's Wednesday, we are wizards. It is time for our weekly cult meeting, wizard Wednesday, channeling in from the quantum downs. This is Elf and Jonah and Bear and, uh, we are just exclamation point magic. Uh, we've got a special guest coming on today. Um, I'm not sure if he's here yet, but, uh, we will sit tight until he gets here.

But I just wanted to let everybody know, if you're not aware, uh, we actually live in a massive multi real life role playing game, or as some people call it an M M R L R P G. Much of our playtime is devoted to the grind. [00:01:00] And this daily grind is where we hone our core skills, but mixed into that routine grind.

Uh, we start getting bold. We start getting adventurous and creative. Uh, the grind becomes a quest and it opens new doors and takes us into new territory, into places we once feared. And no matter what mysteries or ferocious beasts lie beyond those doors, we put our ruins on those doors, we unlock them, and we face the challenge head on.

And before long, our deeds and our magic and our creativity, it starts to show results and we level up. And after enough leveling up, our profiles start to rise and the pages of our book are no longer empty. They have history written on them, and we [00:02:00] become more than what we were. We become legendary. And so at some point during this Wizard Wednesday, I want to, to welcome a very special guest, a man who is no stranger to the grind.

And when, when he gets here, I'll tell you his name. So do you know, do you know where our special guest is?

Alexis Ohanian: He's on his way. I'm texting, I'm texting

Elf: with him. He, he's, he's grinding. I just, uh, I just, I resend him the link. Okay. Yeah. No, it's, it's no problem. Um, you know what? Let's, uh, well in the, let, let's, yeah. We got plenty of other things to talk about. Exactly. No, I was gonna say, Doda, there's, there's another amazing thing happening right now.

Um, our first beast, uh, just finished the auction. Um, hey, there, there's our first beast right there. Uh, Mr. Mr. Ryan Z with the, the new p f p, the Chaos [00:03:00] Chimera.

Alexis Ohanian: Oh

Cult Member: yeah. Oh

Elf: yeah. The Beast came home. Yeah. Yeah. How, how's it feel to be the owner of a legendary beast?

Cult Member: Absolutely fantastic. Uh, yes. I, I can't believe we got it that low and, uh, we're absolutely ecstatic to, to bring it home and pair it with the Sacred Key Master.

Um,

Alexis Ohanian: oh, it's a, it's a perfect combo. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like natural.

Cult Member: Natural, like a man in his beast, right? Um, yeah. Yeah.

Elf: Uh, so

great.

Alexis Ohanian: So yeah, it's been great

Cult Member: and we're actually looking

Alexis Ohanian: to,

Cult Member: uh, uh, we're looking forward to lots of people in the community owning, owning different ones here. And we may pick up maybe one more in a very special auction that, uh, will be announced here in the next couple weeks, uh, um, for a really, [00:04:00] really amazing cost.

But, we'll, we'll save that. I think there's enough like, craziness for one day, so we'll save that for, for another day. But, Um, we're, we're definitely not gonna completely like try to wa out this community and, and, uh, and buy and could consolidate all the beasts for ourselves. So we're super stoked to get this one, and we're super stoked for lots of other people here who, who are so dedicated

Alexis Ohanian: to this, this community to get some as well.

Right

Elf: on. Right on. Yeah. Well, let's, uh, let's maybe talk about beast later today, but, um, our, uh, our special guest, Mr. Alexis Hanon, has just joined. Uh, welcome to Wizard Wednesday, Alexis

Alexis Ohanian: Audi, thanks for having me. I was, I was way too confident my ability to find this group chat, so thanks for your patience.

This Twitter space was not as easy to find as I thought. So happy to meet Karen. I love, it's gonna sound very weird, but the chime was always one of my favorite mythological creatures, and [00:05:00] I'm getting really, this is a deep cut, uh, monsters in my pocket. Yes, it was a red, the red Kymera first edition was for whatever reason, my absolute favorite one.

Uh, and uh, anyway, that's where I first learned about it. Now I was like, wait, what is this creature? That's pot, lion and goat. And what? Snake of a tail of a snake. Dude, this fire the wings of an eagle or some nonsense. I mean, it was, I, I just, I, I don't know. For whatever reason, the chimera really just slapped for me.

So seeing, seeing the, the drop, the essence was pretty fun.

Elf: That better, I know exactly what you're

Alexis Ohanian: talking about. Tweet it for the folks for the young ends who don't. Cause I just thought myself as old. Oh, there's one on eBay right now. Oh, I just sold for $3. Hold on. I can get another one. Here's one for nine bucks.

I'm totally buying it. Oh my God. Collecting is happening in real

Elf: time. This is, I actually still have my chime monster [00:06:00] in my pocket. And we were. We, we were talking to a merch guy the other day and I showed him, I was like,

Alexis Ohanian: getting a monster in my pocket, dude. Oh, I can't wait. Yeah. All right. I just ordered, I've just ordered my, I think that sounds like a pretty

Cult Member: cool derivative project, by the way.

Pocket.

Dotta: Yeah. Put 'em in water and they grow to 20 times

Cult Member: size.

Elf: That's so great. Fun fact.

Alexis Ohanian: I was gonna say, fun fact. I used to actually grow these quite a bit when I was a kid and scare my little sister with

Elf: them. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, all those old toys are the best,

Alexis Ohanian: the best. Um,

Elf: um hmm. But yeah, so Alexis, we got, we got a, we got a bunch of things we want to talk about with you.

Um, I don't know, Doda, do you wanna start? Or, or I, I, I've, I've got some questions. I think our community questions.

Alexis Ohanian: See what I [00:07:00] did there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hello.

Dotta: Well, I think, you know, I think one of the things we'd love to, just to hear, you know, you're, you're, you're well known for, for starting Reddit and so many other things.

But I think one of the things, uh, kind of the wizards would love to hear about is just, um, just some of the games that you played, like early on. You know, you talked about in your video this morning you played like Final Fantasy, and then I know that, you know, you were involved with Sky Weaver and some of those, uh, the games.

I'd just love to hear about, like, I don't know, just some of the things that you love in this space.

Alexis Ohanian: Well, you saw in the launch video, or the announcement video this morning, I, I grew up playing video games like a lot of folks. I have my, I got my graded Final Fantasy one and sealed, uh, n e s I mean, it wasn't mine, you know, when I was a kid, that one was very much open to abused, but the, the first time I played Final Fantasy, I just understood.

A whole, I I, I saw this entirely new world of gaming, I think like a lot of folks, [00:08:00] and it continued to be there. I played Dunson Dragons as a kid. I played Magic The Gathering quite a bit. I also played Spell Fire, which was the weird d and d knockoff of Magic, the Gathering. But with D N D I P and yeah, I read all the Dragon Lance books.

Like I, I was very much into a lot of allure surrounding the, the broader, like rpg, I don't uni, not even a universe, whatever that world. But with video games in particular, it just hit in a different way and found myself into EverQuest pretty early, throughout middle school and high school. And then, wow.

By then end of high school and throughout college. And then, like I said, I had to quit playing. Wow. Cuz I hit the, hit the level cap, which back then was 60. And, and I focused on my real life. Mm. M r pg, which was being an entrepreneur and founding Reddit. So like the, the genre is something I'm nostalgic about.

The genre is something I am just quite smitten with. And, and look, let's, let's face it, it really set a foundation for so many [00:09:00] other games. And I don't wanna be the old man here saying, well, my kids today don't realize. But it's true. I mean, at, at its core, um, the, the role playing game in particular, this sort of Japanese j r g style, that, that final fantasy really pioneered in such an amazing way.

The storytelling, the artistry, I mean, it's just, it's, it's special and the ripple effect still continues. So, you know, I was lucky to be an early investor in Coinbase back in 2012, uh, in the seed round. Uh, and I was, I was at that point just interested because Bitcoin seemed. Seemed interesting, and there were lots of people on Reddit who really liked it.

So that was a good proxy for, you know, maybe something could happen here. But I got crypto pilled really in earnest maybe three or four years ago, and one of the first things that did it was seeding a company called Sky Weaver. Well, a company's called Horizon makers of a, uh, trading card game called Sky Weaver, you know, an on chain one.

And, you know, when we first saw it, it was, you know, it was, it was, there [00:10:00] was nothing. There was, uh, uh, just some, some text on a screen for what could be. But the metaphor just absolutely slapped because I realized, you know, there were a lot of projects that were still seeking. They were a technology in need of a purpose.

They were a, you know, you can decentralize the game and, and that's cool, but it wasn't enough. And it's hard enough to build a great game. The, the trading card game explanation just resonated because, look, we all. Many of us, we grew up playing games where we owned our in-game assets. Yeah. Right. We played Magic, the gathering.

We owned our cards. It would've been absurd if you had to give your cards back at the end of every day to Wizard the coast. Right. And that's, again, a foundational part of gaming. So I wrote this blog post like three years ago that still gets me, I, I get so much hate for it from this contingent of gamers who are just blindly against anything related [00:11:00] to Web three or, or any assembly underlying technology.

Uh, but it's one of my favorites to bring back up because it, it's, there is something really interesting about what, what this technology can now unlock because of a simple thing like ownership. And so, yeah, it was never possible to really imagine final fantasy any other way than the way that we had it.

Um, but sure enough, a whole lot of us started, you know, playing the massively pl multiplayer versions of it a decade later. And, and we can now never unsee it. And I think we're approaching that as well with, with many different types of, of entertainment and things built on top of web three. And it'll come in the next few years.

And like I said, I was looking for something that would resonate with this fundamental part of gaming that so many of us grew up with. And as soon as I first saw the, the very eight bit inspired artwork, um, I just thought, okay, all right, this, these folks get me. And, and once I saw what was cooking in the community, I thought, all right, look, there's a lot of work to [00:12:00] do.

No doubt. You know, making a great game is very, very, very hard. But, but here are the raw materials of taste, of team and of community, that sort of minimum viable community that I'm, I'm fond of, of reminding folks about that, that makes this worth digging into and exploring more. And. You know, and we got, got to conviction and invested a few bucks and we're excited to help be a part of this.

Um, it's, it's a wild world that I love.

Dotta: There's so much beautiful work in those early games. So for me, I actually learned how to program, um, like doing muds back in the day. So

Alexis Ohanian: I, my own grandpa, I have no, my, I, I have no understanding how you all got by with that.

Dotta: So they were purely text based, right? So they're pure, pure text.

And you, you know, you say, you know, like Walk to the East, right? And you just pick, you know, like almost like Kings Quest, early Kings Quest, but without

Alexis Ohanian: the pictures and no bar.

Dotta: And one of the things that they would do, even in those days, the code was open source. [00:13:00] And so it was a lot like crypto in that way where you had this like camp breathe explosion of like super interesting games and the mechanics and the, and the game space moving forward really quickly because you have this sort of, this same right to exit that it felt like we missed out on in video games like since then until now.

Alexis Ohanian: Really? That's a very good point. Yeah. And it, look, it makes sense that these are the areas that are gonna get explored first because so many of the builders, so many of us, we just grew up playing these games and so we're gonna build what we know and what we loved and, and then frankly, right, they are, they're kind of like their own.

Lego pieces, right? This starts getting a little meta, but the, the beauties, if we go back to tabletop role playing games, you know, was the fact that they created Guy Acts and others created the framework that let other people that is dungeon masters actually go further and create the worlds and create the ventures and storytelling.

Just say, look, here are the basic pieces, here are [00:14:00] the Legos, get your dye and get some figurines if you want to get some graph paper and then just go build and, and you know, people learn from one another, but it was pretty old school and pretty slow because we, you know, we weren't all connected online talking all the damn time.

But that rate of innovation that I, I think can take hold here is gonna really impress folks with just. It's just really awesome gaming experiences. Great community building. One of the how, how do you

Cult Member: feel about, can I, how do you feel about how incentivization adds this sort of rocket fuel to this iteration of it?

Because you have like provable scarcity because you have, you know, Metcalf's law

Alexis Ohanian: applied to, to anybody

Cult Member: around the world can

Alexis Ohanian: buy, buy these and enter the game

Cult Member: at any given time and even replace their job with it and like really go down the, the rabbit hole, even one extra layer, uh, had to like, you know, being so, so experienced in, in like the [00:15:00] stores of value and the culture components of these games in the past.

How do you, how do you feel that like this, um, this wave is, is is different or, or

Alexis Ohanian: accelerated? Well, there's a lot of unknowns here. Like, because we've just, we have not seen anything like this. Even, even these. What the blockchain does as this global distributed ledger is it, it's, it has now created the, the database that we can all peer into, that we can all consider a, a sort of source of truth and that's gonna unlock new behaviors.

And so I, I watched for, you know, 15 years, 16 years, every product that I was designing or shipping for Reddit to incentivize communities and individuals to just do dope stuff was limited because it could just be up votes, you know, it was internet points. They didn't really mean anything. And yet, you know, I saw amazing communities get formed.

I saw people put in so many great hours [00:16:00] to do great work for total strangers, to do delightful things, to do, funny things to come together. And I'm, I'm convinced that if you can align the incentives properly and, and give people the reward, not just for being creators, which is obviously a really important part of the ecosystem, but being early and right to join the community actually has always had value that we've never been able to reward people for.

Like you could, you're, you've seen like as a species, we've come up with proxies, right? Like having, uh, like even having a, a, a well graded copy of an early edition of Final Fantasy, like, you know, that's, there's, it's, it's partially because it's art, it's partially because it's nostalgia. Like it makes me feel good just to look at it.

And at the time, because I remember all the great memories spent. And I think there is, you know, as a, again, as a species, we've, we've created proxies for it. And so, you know, now I have, I can have a [00:17:00] graded copy of Final Fantasy, but like, It's, it's been an ugly hack in many ways. And what this technology now enables is to say, look, if you were there and you were early and you were right, you have something to really show for it that is digital.

And it's, you know, has all the advantages of being digital, but still has the scarcity and still has a true ownership that the, the analog world historically had. And that's lots of there, you know, there's lots of upside there. There's there's lots of reasons to like that. And be excited by it. And I think what it also means for game developers, which is another one of these unknowns, is that your incentives are fundamentally different in, in building and then sustaining this business.

Right? Think of all of the games historically. I mean, there's probably some servers still running EverQuest. I don't know. I know I didn't even play EverQuest too. That was kind of a, I think a train wreck. But like there have, there have [00:18:00] rarely been incentives for. The producers of these games to, to maintain legacy IP that still has a like passionate user base, um, because they need to move on to the next big thing because it's a hits driven business, et cetera, et cetera.

I, this won't be the case for all, but for the, the really good ones, I think this changes the dynamic of how teens are incentivized to support and evolve games over time. Because if you have that core audience and you're able to, you know, sustainably show that like they're very interested and very passionate, like that has value and historically the market has never rewarded it, and now I think it will, which, which means developers are more incentivized to do things that are in the long-term, greedy, best interests of their community and them, which aligns a lot more often than people realize.

Whereas traditionally, game developers and painting in broad strokes here, they're incentivized to do things that are more short-term, greedy. And not necessarily in long term best interests of, of [00:19:00] gamers. And, and you can, you can look at plenty of examples of that and, and that's the part, I don't know how it will play out, but my instincts are telling me that teams that are thinking about the long term benefits of what they're building, teams that are thinking about what they're doing, not just as a quote unquote business, but also as almost like a head of state.

Like you're not just, I used to say this all the time at Reddit, like I wasn't just being a ceo, was also being a head of state. And you have to balance those two things in, in basically every web three project. Now it's this understanding that like, yes, there are fundamentals of the business. You need to run well, you need to underpromise over delivery, you need to ship, you need to do all that stuff.

Team building, all of that. And you have a community that you really need to bring on the ride with you and, and keep motivated and keep incentivized and, and it's delicate. It's, it's a lot more like being head of state than it is a traditional CEO [00:20:00] who's, you know, historically been able to, you know, put, put their head in the sand.

And, and I think it's a good thing for everyone that's shifted.

Elf: I think, um, oh, go ahead.

Cult Member: I get right.

Alexis Ohanian: Sorry.

Elf: To me, one, one of the most fun things about this is mm-hmm. Um, at least, at least for our project, is thinking about the, uh, parallels between building up a character in an r PPG and building up a digital identity on web three.

Um, you, you mentioned early on how you stopped playing Warcraft when you hit level 60 because Yeah. You, you were, you basically had to, but yeah, with web three, You can continue leveling up your entire life and beyond. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you, and you carry that progress with you everywhere you go on web three.

Yeah. And you, you bounce from one like ecosystem to another and you're the same character getting stronger and stronger and stronger endlessly. Yeah. Um, and I, I just [00:21:00] think that's, that's a really fun idea. Like, like 1 1, 1 example I bring up a lot is like, think about, uh, Leroy Jenkins

Alexis Ohanian: in, um, Leroy Exactly.

In real life. It was a, it was a pleasure.

Elf: Yeah. And, and so like, imagine if, you know, Leroy could, could like keep being Leroy wherever he went on, on these digital platforms, you know, I think that's, that's what we have ahead of

Alexis Ohanian: us now. Yeah. I also, I

Dotta: I also

Alexis Ohanian: think that like, something you bring up and that is a new dynamic in, in developing games is like, it

Dotta: is that community factor, right?

It's not just about

Alexis Ohanian: the incentive structure that, you know, people are going to, you know, be able to create NFTs and sell them on third, you know, party platforms

Dotta: or,

Alexis Ohanian: um, or just the infinite game loops that keep people coming back. It's like the, we spend so much time with Bionic trying to integrate all of the pillars of strength that we've built within our community in the project and like, and injecting that into the [00:22:00] ethos of the game.

And it's been interesting and like you said, we don't know how it's gonna go, but it is absolutely core and feels like a new sort of, uh, element that you

Cult Member: have to bake

Alexis Ohanian: into these games. Um, and, and it's interesting. We, we'll see how it plays

Cult Member: out.

Alexis Ohanian: I look, I agree and this is, this is the kind of opportunity where everything, everything is gonna get rebuilt and reimagined.

We have a basic framework for one way to do it. You know, web two or the sort of the previous years of gaming and, and like I would look to user experience, that is almost always where you're going to win. If you're creating something that again is a long-term great user experience, that's probably what's gonna win out.

And if you look at like, Leroy definitely didn't get to, you know, blizzard was not trying to let Leroy continue that like identity and rep outside of the platform. But plenty of places showed up to be this kind of [00:23:00] black market or like, eBay is a great example of where, you know, despite it being against the rules and the policies, folks would still auction their accounts.

Right. It was a very illiquid marketplace. It was technically, I was the right word. It was against the terms of service and people still did it. So what is that telling us? Like there is real value there that people sought out and even though the user experience was terrible, they still did it. And, and that makes me think, well, great, we make the experience delightful and a whole hell of a lot more people are gonna jump to it and mm-hmm.

And got y'all. We're, we're in this weird stage where we're talking about technologies like NFTs and, and blockchains and things that the average person doesn't know about, doesn't care about, um, in the same way that no one is out here 15, 20 years ago, talking about what a big deal hypertext transfer protocols would be and, and to this day, right?

The average person doesn't have a clue. They don't [00:24:00] need to, they just need to know. They go to a website and it works. And, and that is how I think about this underlying technology. Again, it's gonna come back down to a user experience to creating things that feel familiar to folks. I mean, right now everyone on this, uh, Twitter space is a, is an early adopter.

Congratulations. You're early. Uh, this is, I I am, I am so unsure of the micro things that are gonna play out like that that is gonna come back to human creativity, right? Even on, I remember building my first website on Geo Cities. It was a Quake two fan page, and I found some really dope gifts of like a rail gun spinning in a circle and like a rocket launcher had all my favorite weapons.

Like, this is my favorite map and. And I saw this page counter at the bottom and I thought it was, I didn't realize it was just a page view, not like unique visitors. So I got really excited until I realized that it just wasn't actually a, it was not, it's not hundreds of pounds. Cause you refreshing

Elf: the

Dotta: counter.

Alexis Ohanian: [00:25:00] Yeah, exactly. But, but I really, you know, I, it, it, it put into motion this idea of like, oh cool. And this is like web one. Like I can create things on the internet that anyone in the world can see. Now, I was probably, let's see, it was the mid nine, maybe 98, 97, I don't know. Let's say 97, 98. So in 2005, call it 10 years, let's say it was 10 years later, that same dorky kid who was like, look, it's a Quake two fan page.

I just made, like, I'm sitting there designing up votes and down votes and comments and that same person, I never would've, I never could've imagined any of the things I ended up designing, even just 10 years later for Reddit. Because this was a brand new medium that I was still exploring. And so we are still at that stage where we don't, like, we, we, we are just figuring out how to use this really basic clay to create something of utility.

And, and so like I, [00:26:00] I'm sitting here knowing I can't predict this specific stuff that is to come, but what I am sure of is that delightful user experiences, you know, really robust and, and nurtured communities. Those are the ways to creating long-term, amazing stuff. And, and something on a, on a, a micro decision, a really tactical decision that you all make at two in the morning to ship blah, blah, blah.

No spoilers. Um, that's, you know, when you announce that to the community and then you see the response from it and you realize, okay, no, no, no, this is the momentum, this is the gameplay we need, this is the mechanic, this is the whatever. That's the stuff that is gonna push all of us forward because it'll make the whole.

Industry, you know, of, of Web three gaming and maybe frankly, all of gaming kind of look up and say, okay, that was dope. All right. I see what they did there. This is clever, this is novel. We keep moving forward because we're, even though we've seen a whole generation of games developed, this is a really just foundationally [00:27:00] different technology to be building on.

And I, that's the exciting part, is there's no one who can actually predict where it goes. We just gotta make some great, easier experiences, great communities, and great Legos. Mm-hmm. Well, when you talk

Dotta: about this idea of like being a heads of state, that's really interesting, right? Because you're, you're not able to just tell your community you know what to do and how to do it.

You sort of like set in police policies and, and um, you know, when you have this like world of workup situation where people are like, still. Gold on eBay or characters on eBay, you know, uh, we get this opportunity with crypto to kind of integrate that into the platform, right? We won't be fighting that.

We'll be encouraging it, but at the same time, what happens is you, you risk maybe like a hyper capitalization of the game. And, and what we have now with the cult is this sort of like tight-knit group of people who like, you know, scratch each other's back, right? People are giving wizards away to one another even now.

And like we know each other's names and we know like who each other's characters are. What are some of the advice that you might have for us as we, as you, as we have this growing community [00:28:00] and we're like, You, we have this gift economy now and we're moving into like a much broader world. Like what are some of the ex Do you have any advice from like the experiments you tried at Reddit or from like scaling a, a community to like keep that kind of gift economy feel as you move into something that becomes more like

Alexis Ohanian: systematized?

Yeah, and this is something I wish I'd done a better job productizing. So I left Reddit in 2010, started at oh five, sold at oh six, left in 2010, came back in 2014 during the four, five year intermission, like the product really, uh, froze time. So there was a lot, there was a lot of tech debt and stuff to overcome.

And I, and there's, there's still stuff that I wish I just wish I had done differently, wish I had shipped or, or what have you. But one of the north stars for me came very early and, uh, so Drew Curtis of FARC was, is uh, a buddy of mine and I remember talking to him one night over beers and this is like 2007.

This is early, early days. [00:29:00] And I was complaining about how much I hated advertising as a business model. I was just like, dude, I don't think advertising is gonna work. It's not sustainable. We also weren't making very much money off of it cuz advertisers wanted like big, big, big ad space, especially back then and we just wouldn't give it to them.

So admittedly I was bitter cause I was like, we're not making any money on it and it's a bad easier experience. Like I, this can't be the way. And he looks at me, he says, Hey dude, you know, we made this thing called Total Farc and I forget how much it was. It was $10 a month subscription. And as long as you, um, or as long as you have it, uh, you get access to like a private forum and you get this little badge next to your name that shows that you're like a special member.

So whenever you comment people like, oh, he is, you know, they've got total farc. And he tells me this. I'm like, damn, that's a pretty good idea. And so immediately now you're starting to see where red a gold came from. But the smartest thing he said was, and make sure you let people gift it to one another.[00:30:00]

Because that is really gonna unlock something big. And I thought, okay, all right. That's, that's a good idea. And, and they saw the same thing at FARC they initially launched where you could just buy it for yourself. But once they let people gift it, it unlocked a whole, I mean, a massive revenue boost. So fast forward Reddit launches red at gold, and then, uh, I left and, and things kind of stagnated, but I think we have since resurrected it in ways now, obviously Twitch has, has blazed the trail for, for everything from bits to, you know, the, the, this, all this stuff seems very boring and and tired, but I swear in 2006 it was a pretty revolutionary novel concept and I really think there's some equivalent for it in Web three where, so like you already have this culture within the Wizards community, which is great.

At some point though, it's gonna become prohibitive to be that generous with wizards. So what are the ways that you create a kind of release valve that incentivizes folks to keep doing that behavior? Doesn't mess up with the game mechanics [00:31:00] too much. Um, and still vibes with, with the energy of all the things.

Like there's, there's absolutely a path forward for that. And we've seen, you know, different projects have done different things between, uh, I mean things around tokens, but I, I just believe there's going to be, there's a game mechanic somewhere here that is unique and novel and it may not seem, look, it, it, a lot of the stuff is not gonna seem like a revolution.

And that's the other thing. I, all the projects that I work with, my refrain is, everything that you ship should at least pass this sniff test. It doesn't have to be a, a totally revolutionary idea. It just has to pass this sniff test of anyone who's in the space, who's paying attention goes, oh yeah, all right.

That was clever. They pushed, they pushed the ball forward even a little bit more with the way that they executed that thing with the, with the artistic approach they took, with the, with something you, you. If you're actually trying to build something that's enduring [00:32:00] you, you have to have this mindset and a space with just so much noise and so much, so many scammers, and so much bullshit that you set yourself apart in a big, big way.

If you just hold yourselves to that kind of a standard, which again, it's not gonna seem it, it doesn't need to be some brilliant innovation on a smart contract that does, you know, a million just genius world changing things. It just needs to feel meaningfully better than whatever else is out there. Or just be a meaningfully just more thoughtful take or more interesting, more unique and, and having that momentum, uh, as well as developing that culture internally is where I think the the real magic is gonna be happening.

Ryan, did you

Dotta: have a question earlier? Sorry, I talked over you.

Alexis Ohanian: Uh, nope. No, not at

Cult Member: all. I just, it, it was really interesting to, to hear Alexis's references a couple of times to like community and checking in with community and taking the signal from like real, real world

Alexis Ohanian: user community. And that's something that

Cult Member: [00:33:00] has always attracted us so much to, to wizards is just the, the kind of rabid nature of the, the cult that these people are, are so into it.

And there's so many people from, from so many walks of life that, that are into it. And that's like the north that we often see. Like we're never about the top down, celebrity driven, corporate, you know, centralized version. We're always the grassroots bottom up, um, you know, community driven, decentralized version of it.

And just like leaning into that and staying true to that as the, at this, this community unfolds, I think will long term. Uh, Pay really significant

Alexis Ohanian: dividends for just

Cult Member: the quality of the universe, uh, overall. And I guys just keep the faith.

Alexis Ohanian: I I think you'll get there for sure. I agree. And it's, and look, it's gonna be a, it's actually vibes a lot with Reddit.

Like Reddit's growth was slow and steady and [00:34:00] I think it, okay. It was definitely not planned. Believe me. If we could have grown as fast as dig, I would've loved that. But, right. What we got, right, actually in hindsight was because it was so genuine, because it was so focused on the community. Cause it was just scrappier.

We didn't have the resources. We, we raised $12,000 to, to get Reddit started. We, we were just, uh, we, we had to listen to our community because that is just all we had. And I get excited thinking about how focusing it is. For you all to have that ear to the community and what they want. Especially cause building a game like it, I I keep saying like, it is not trivial.

Right? And the good news is y'all, you've got the right folks around the room and like actually on the building front and then, uh, a community of wizards who are a cult is such a loaded [00:35:00] work. But it is the wizard. It, it's a real cult, you know? And, and I think that, I dunno how to describe the, here. Okay.

This is the reason, the reason the Davids have such advantage against Goliath in a pretty unprecedented way is let's say we built, let's say this was the final fantasy game. Let's just say your goal was just work with, was it square, soft, Phoenix? I don't know. Whoever, whoever owns that. Pino, um, to build the on chain final fantasy.

You would start day one with a massive, ostensibly community, but really you would just have a massive audience because you have a ton of people who all know the game, remember the game, love the game. But with that, they come with a lot of expectations because they're used to playing the AAA titles.

They're, they're expecting, like, you know, they're, [00:36:00] they're, they're expecting a large corporate entity to like, hopefully not screw it up and not be doing some like lazy cash grab. And, and so from day one, that project, in spite of the fact that it has tremendous value of large audience and awareness and just a wealth of artistry and creativity and story and all of that, actually has a disadvantage because by being focused on building something for a really small, obsessive cult, Once you start seeing the progress and the momentum, it just hits different because now it's like this story, this shared experience of going from zero to one.

And normally founders feel that normally founders and early employees feel that. But now truly the, the, the people who actually are doing the building as well as the people who are actually building the community, who are the members of the community, they're all on that ride. They're all drinking that same punch.

And the rate at [00:37:00] which that momentum can spin up and start to attract other people because it's so earnest is, is a big deal, right? Even telling a friend, Hey, you gotta try this new final fantasy game doesn't come with with, uh, I mean, it could come with a little bit of zeal, but it's mostly based on nostalgia.

Recruiting a friend to play with you in a game where you feel like you are a part of building that game, truly in every sense of the word has a just, it hits totally different. And again, there's no. There's not really a precedent for it. We, the reason why I get to do this job of being an early investor in, in, you know, companies that one day go on to be worth billions, is because these teams are able to recruit early employees who, who just are devoted to the cause, who want to build on something they genuinely care about.

And that's part of what makes startups work because it requires a certain amount of just passion and love and almost borderline delusion to believe. But now you can extend that [00:38:00] to the community of people who actually, like, make it all happen. The, the audience, the, the, that part that unlock, we're still seeing how that's gonna unfold.

But I, I just, I don't know. I think it, it means in five years you could create something that has a kind of fanaticism and zeal and love and maybe even size as something that's been around for decades. Right in a fraction at a time, maybe in 10 years, you're able to scale up to something that has the kind of of influence and excitement and interest and whatnot as something that's been around for a decade plus, because that momentum, because of that, that's a newness that like as a, I mean, gosh, as a species we've never really quite been able to feel before.

And, and it's what makes startups work. It's what makes people want to come in and do the work on a thing when their friends and family are like, you really wanna be working at that company? Like, why don't you just get a job at Google? Um, although that is becoming less of a, certainly less of a thing. [00:39:00] But, uh, but I'm excited to see it.

I'm excited to see it unfold and certainly happy that it's, uh, it's an RPG inspired by a lot of the same, uh, artistry that, that I was as a kid.

Elf: Yeah, it's, uh, it's what we call the collaborative legendary. It's, um, uh, there's not one guy like JR Tolkin at the top building this world. This, this, the whole universe is being built by an our entire community.

Alexis Ohanian: Yes. And that means everyone feels like, I mean, it's a, it's a gift and a curse cuz everyone feels like they have a same thing with Reddit. They feel a sense of ownership in it, and that well aligned is a force to be reckoned with. Uh, there's, there's just nothing else like it. And that's, that's part of the reason why so much of the, I'd say the last couple of years in web three have, I think come pretty naturally for me.

Just because I've been primed. Right. Everything, like I feel like I can see the matrix cuz everything looks like Reddit except at a much [00:40:00] larger scale. Yeah. And with much more, much more potential on that. How do you, how do you

Cult Member: see sort of the culture stack, uh, playing out?

Alexis Ohanian: Um, how would you recommend that the team, you know, running

Cult Member: the universe sort of.

Roll out a cadence between different media, so like, whether it's shows or print or, you know, we talked

Alexis Ohanian: about physicals

Cult Member: Yeah. At the top. Uh, and then the game, which is obviously the most complex part. And then even evolving the game from like the Minigame beta into full MMO R P G capabilities. How, how does that like culture stack look for you in terms of how you should, should, should roll that out going forward?

Obviously

Alexis Ohanian: it's difficult to predict, but what do you think? I would prioritize, I would set a minimum level of delight. Like you have to have some agreed upon sort of minimum viable, um, like level of taste or [00:41:00] execution so that you know that when something comes out, it's right, it, it hits and it shows it, it helps to create that momentum and then I would stack that.

So if you assume that you're gonna get that, then. Obviously listen to the community. That's a no-brainer. See what they're already vibing on. And then I would prioritize, I would, I would prioritize to, to maximize sort of like, okay. The same way I would look at like a product roadmap and, and plotting that out.

I would look at P zeros where, you know, you can ship them pretty quickly relative to others and get a huge return where return is like community delight. And I would, I would take that feedback from the community. I would rank it based on sort of launches, based on, um, how we can hit in terms of expedience, expediency, whatever, quickness to get it out and sort of awesomeness or wow factor [00:42:00] and, uh, and rank it that way so that you're creating a cadence.

This is, I'll tell you this is another thing. So much of my time spent with CEOs. And I try to do this internally here at 7 76. I try to do it at Reddit. So much of my time is spent really talking about creating this cadence of execution because within an organization, it is the highest leverage thing I have ever seen a company do.

So if a company can get good at having ideas, prioritizing them, and then shipping them well, and then just get really good, relentlessly doing that over and over week to week, you know, fortnight to Fortnite, month to month, whatever it is, it creates this amazing virtuous cycle because internally it's this momentum.

It, it creates, uh, a sort of a drive to execute from the team. Any person who joins sees that day one and they're like, oh shit, okay. This is a place where people ship. They're getting stuff done. It creates this amazing dynamic [00:43:00] for the users, for the community because like, let's face it, most of the stuff that we use every day does not get better.

Like, You could drink the same sparkling water every day and like maybe you get a new flavor every six months or here, but the product's not getting meaningfully better. And software has this really unfair advantage of being able to get meaningfully better. And yet most of the software that we're just used to every day, like what was the last time you opened up Chrome?

And you were like, oh man, Chrome is just 10 times better now. Right? And that's, I'm picking on them because it's an established incumbent, but this is the huge advantage the upstarts have. And so you create this cadence where the community starts to just really see, like not what you say, but what you do.

And you continue to underpromise over, deliver you, you continue to execute. That is, it is addictive. It is this, it is a special thing when it happens because everyone feels that momentum internally and externally and you can't look away because you just [00:44:00] want to see what is gonna happen next. And it's a, and it, it really just comes back to like saying you're gonna do things and then doing them and doing them well, and then just doing that over and over and over again.

And then you do, if you do that consistently for five years, like you'll, you'll at the end of that five years, you'll look back and be like, oh wow, look how far we've come and look what we've built. Because sad to say like so few companies, projects, whatever you wanna call it, actually accomplished that.

How do you see that changing

Cult Member: as it's not a company building out mm-hmm. These things in a vacuum, but rather an open, decentralized community and a dao and like the fact that you have to kind of like build in a glass factory, so to speak, with all of your, all of your fans', users and shareholders,

Alexis Ohanian: like constantly being able to peer in.

Yeah. How do you think that that

Cult Member: experience changes with, with respect to this building pattern?

Alexis Ohanian: Um, I mean, I really, this, I'm telling you this, this aligns [00:45:00] so much with my own experience building Reddit. The, the huge Okay. The, the advantage. So structurally, yes, it was the same. The advantage we had was the people looking were just much smaller and their expectations were much less.

Cause it was 2005, you know, it wasn't, social media didn't exist. Like yeah, we, we, we, that, we had that going first. But I think like a lot of things, you're gonna see cultures emerge. You're gonna see tools emerge to make this stuff easier. And I just believe you've got, you still got to make hard decisions that are in the best interests of the community.

And this is the governance part where it's like you get enough goodwill. And I'm not saying playing politics, I'm saying like politics almost in the best, like most idyllic sense of it, where you, you know, you have a constituency that you're in many ways beholden to you. You, [00:46:00] you fill up, uh, you, you, you fill up the bank account, figuratively speaking by doing things that make people, you can almost think of it as like the approval rating.

They make things supportive of you and the work that you all are doing so that when you have to make a hard decision that may not be the most popular, but is really in the long term best interests, people are like, all right, you know what? They're making the right call. We, and, and because they have earned the right by, by sort of having that rate approval rating, they have the political currency to make the tough call that's in the best interest because I, I do think there is still some amount of centralization required to do a lot of things well, now clearly this technology has proven there's a fuck ton of things that don't need centralization.

We've done really well. But creative projects are one of the things where there is absolutely a role for the community to play. But there is [00:47:00] also absolutely a role for someone or, or some group of people at the sort of, um, at, in, in service to the long term best interest of the community to make the decisions, to create great output, just because of the, I think the nature of the process, all this stuff.

I mean, who knows? Technology may find a way to make that more efficient too. But for now, this is one where you just gotta fill up, fill up the account with goodwill. Um, and, and then just keep making the best decisions you can for the long term. Alexis, we've

Dotta: got a couple cult content, uh, cult

Elf: questions.

Dotta: Okay. Uh, some, someone from the community was asking, uh, what class, uh, Laura Punk asks, what class do you see yourself as? Do you see yourself as a major, a warrior beast?

Alexis Ohanian: Oh, I, I always played warrior class or some, some variant of it. Like my, the World of Warcraft, uh, character that I retired at 60 was a palate.

And, but I think, I don't know. I have a battle ma that I'm quite fond of, [00:48:00] so I'm thinking, I'm thinking it could be maj. I, I, I don't, I don't wanna put too much pressure on you all, but, you know, it's funny, the, I've always felt like, okay, and I'm thinking about EverQuest in World of Warcraft in particular, I've always felt like spell animations in those MMOs.

We're just, uh, I, like, I get,

Cult Member: I get the reasons why, but they're,

Alexis Ohanian: they, when I think of spells, when I think of like the insane summons from like Final Fantasy seven I, I like, there's something that I really love about just how bonkers you can get with wizardry and in terms of the graphics, the designs and things you can actually show.

And it always felt like the moos that I grew up playing just didn't ever do Wizards justice. Like, I, I don't know, it's just not the same. We used to make fun of the, like, casting animations of [00:49:00] EverQuest wizards, uh, cuz it just looked, it looks so helpless. Anyway, I, I don't know if hopefully this is being conveyed.

Well, I'll find some animated gifts of it, but it was just really overwhelming. So I, wizard Wizard 7 76 is pretty dope. Flaming,

Cult Member: flaming, uh, head. That's a, that's pretty dope one as well. Another

Alexis Ohanian: thing. The good news is we do have thousands of warriors entering the world next month. So you'll have a chance to, to, to be a, a warrior class if you'd like.

Okay. No, I, I don't know if I'm gonna convert, but we'll see. We'll see. Keep my options open. Um,

Elf: matrix, you came up here. Do you have a question?

Alexis Ohanian: Yes. Well, hi Alexis. This is more of a, hello. Hey, this is more of a comment I wanna say, and I am so excited that you are part of the cult. Just the other day I saw your, uh, tweet of tarot cards and I like talked [00:50:00] about it in the Discord.

I was like, is he like getting into wizards? And a couple days later, here you are. And like I've, I don't know if anyone else can understand how exciting this is for me. Like, as an Armenian person, I've always been happy that you're like a big, you're a big role model in Web three. And I just wanna say like, hello and welcome.

And this is by far the best community in this space. And, um, I've known Elf for a long time and, but like, that's how I got into Wizards originally. But like, it's because like I know how like fucking brilliant he is. And like, it's so exciting. I also wanted to say this to Elf, like, seeing all of your creations come to life is just so fucking magical.

Like, your brain is amazing.

Elf: And stop.

Alexis Ohanian: Huge kick

Dotta: off shelf for the, for for Chaos.

Alexis Ohanian: Crimea.

Cult Member #2: Chaos Crimea, that's sick. But yeah.

Alexis Ohanian: Anyway, just [00:51:00] like, welcome Alexis, and I'm, I'm really excited that you're here. Oh, thank you.

Elf: Awesome. Uh, Doda, are there any other questions in the, the discord?

Alexis Ohanian: Uh, you know, the only other, the only other note I wanna make there is, I forgot to mention this, so, super, super key.

This is a pro tip. Um, the, the biggest vulnerability in web three culture and community right now is the fact that, like, I don't, the, the most optimistic numbers I've seen are like 25% women, 30% women, y'all know half the human population or women, uh, if you didn't newsflash. And when it comes to community, the thing that, my favorite stat, despite Reddit being, you know, pretty heavily skewed towards men, when you actually, when we surveyed our moderators, that is the people who were doing all the community building on Reddit.

They were disproportionately women. [00:52:00] And I really think this, this, this, this missing piece is gonna get fit in in the next couple of years. But the communities and the groups and the organizations that proactively go out to recruit to create those spaces are gonna have such an unfair advantage because, I mean, we, I'm sure some PhD has written all kinds of papers on it, but at the end of the day, like there is an unfair advantage that women, at least as I have seen, have when it comes to community building online or offline, doesn't matter.

Even on places like Reddit where you'd think they might not have a great time, this is such an opportunity. And, uh, and so I, I think, you know, this is one thing we weren't able. Look, I didn't play dozens and dragons with a single girl. I would've loved to, I really would've loved to. I would've made middle school and high school a lot more fun.

But at the end of the day, it's in everyone's best interest to have that experience. And I think even just from a selfish, like how do you, how do you [00:53:00] make this cult as successful as possible? Uh, it, it's gonna be bringing women along and, um, and I know like, it's just, it's great to already see the activity.

That was one of the reasons why, uh, we were excited to, to really dive in. But, um, I, I can,

Elf: I can tell you we've got some amazing women wizards in our cult, um, and, and one of them in fact sings songs regular regularly on our spaces. Um, Margaret, are you, uh, do you wanna say something?

Cult Member #2: Uh, hi. Thank you very much Donna and Alf, and, and welcome.

Welcome everyone, and welcome Alexis. Um, a, a salute to you from another Paladin. I have the honor to be one of the recipients of the Honorary Warriors, as does Nares. Um, and you know, we are really glad to have you here. And I wanted to ask you if you'd like to hear a song that I've written about the release of The First [00:54:00] Beast.

Alexis Ohanian: Yes. So, yeah, mark, fan music. I love it. We

Elf: would love to end with your song. Um, I think Chain Link Bowl had a question, um, but Oh, he, he just stepped down. Oh, darn it. Chain Link Bull. I wanted to hear your question. Um, but heck, ask me on Twitter close out, but we can close out with Margaret's song. I'm, I think that's a perfect way.

To tie it up for sure. Yeah. And, and, and I, I just wanna say, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I, I really don't think any other community has people who sing as much as, as we have in others. So, so, uh, yeah, I, I guess, uh, Margaret by please, uh, grace our ears with your new song.

Cult Member #2: Okay. Well, thank you very much. And, and it's, this is a real honor.

Um, I can't think of anyone better to, to join us than Alexis. Uh, this song is called Kyara and it's about the [00:55:00] release of the First Beast.

I had been training my mind. Whoa, whoa.

It's the little things that happened in the middle of the night.

Go on. They say love is blind. Whoa, whoa.

It's the little things that happen in the middle of the night

room, far following the guiding star to the gate among the hills. Heavy with locks. Nobody's seen it before. [00:56:00] Gather all who hold a key spell. Nobody can really tell who lies and wait past the door. And I wonder, wonder, wonder. Wonder, why? And I wonder, wonder, wonder. Wonder why

Everyone started to talk Wow. Of the little things that happened in the middle of the night.

Sage said to wait for the block.

Alexis Ohanian: Wow.

Cult Member #2: Wow. For the little things that happened [00:57:00] in the middle of the night,

suddenly. Light shown from the Golden Keys. Spell shot out. So bright and clean, and the locks fallen free one by one. Turn again door opens a ancy with eyes. So mean stepping out from the light of the strange sun. And I wonder, wonder, wonder. Wonder, why?

And I wonder, wonder, wonder, wonder. I,

oh, I had been training my mind. [00:58:00] Well, It's the little things that happen in the middle of the night.

Gates sews quickly behind. Whoa. Well, it's a little things that happen. Oh, beast, full of magic. And mind flew. He higher than the eyes could see dignified and strange and free. His call echoed straight to the ground drums and read in the valley's, answering longing for the strangest thing. When all of his spa will be [00:59:00] found.

And I wonder, wonder, wonder, wonder, why? And I wonder, wonder, wonder. Wonder why? Oh, it's the little things that happen, um, that happen in the middle of the night. In the middle of the night.

Oh, it's the little things that happen. And that happened in the middle of the night, in the middle of the night.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Yes,

Cult Member: thank you. That was amazing.

Alexis Ohanian: Well done

Elf: Margaret. [01:00:00]

Cult Member #2: And I wanna say to you, Alexis, that that is just one, one facet of the beautiful crystal of the, our community. That the writing, the art, the storytelling, the music, the video, everything that's happening in this community is beautiful.

And you know, the inspiration that flows through me today is from that community. And I have so much hope for our future.

Alexis Ohanian: Thank you. What do you guys think of putting that song in? Uh uh, in the

Cult Member: lore? Chaos, crime? Yeah. I love

Alexis Ohanian: it.

Dotta: Hell yeah.

Elf: I think, um, thank you so much for coming to be with

Dotta: us today. It was

Alexis Ohanian: really wonderful. My, my pleasure to talk to you. So don't be strangers on Twitter. Get at me. All

Elf: right. Thank you so much, Alexis. And, and, uh, uh, thank you everybody. Uh, it's been a really great show. Um, [01:01:00] this has been, uh, elf Doda, Ryan, Alexis, Margaret Bear, snake Matrix, and the entire Forgotten Ruins, wizards cult channeling out from the Quantum Downs.

G

Alexis Ohanian: gn, everybody. Good night. Good

Cult Member #2: night.